TobaccoAsia/ InterTabac Podcast #57

00:00:04: This is Tobacco and Vape News & Views brought to you by Tobacco Asia in partnership with Business Insights, the new digital platform of inter-tobac and intersupply.

00:00:16: You host this tobacco asias Thomas Schmidt.

00:00:18: welcome to a new episode.

00:00:25: Hello everybody green tank technologies are cutting edge Canadian company pioneering atomization at advanced material science across multiple industry segments.

00:00:35: At the forefront of this innovation drive is GreenTank's patented Quantum Chip technology.

00:00:42: Quantum chip is engineered to deliver a superior user experience while significantly advancing harm reduction solutions in the ENDS industry, but we'll come into that in a little while!

00:00:56: But now I have waiting on the Mike Chris Gammel – GreenTanks Chief Product and Innovation Officer.

00:01:02: Chris leads the company's R&D and product teams in developing reduced-risk products, And further advancing the breakthrough chip based atomization platform In the nicotine cannabinoid and wellness segments.

00:01:17: Chris brings more than twenty five years of experience across consumer goods at nicotine innovation to the table.

00:01:24: He kicked off his career with sixteen years at Kellogg's.

00:01:29: That's probably where his interest in chips comes from.

00:01:32: Corn chips!

00:01:34: Just kidding... But then he spent over a decade at VAT, Where it gained deep expertise In vapor and oral nicotine products in the US And later on At global level before eventually joined green tank.

00:01:50: So we have quite heavy weight here On this show today.

00:01:55: Before he slumbers off due to my ramblings Let's give him something to do.

00:02:00: Hi Chris, are you there?

00:02:02: How am I coming through?

00:02:03: Hi

00:02:04: Thomas!

00:02:04: You're coming through loud and clear.

00:02:07: Great to join in the podcast today of course.

00:02:09: a very warm welcome to anyone who is tuning-in.

00:02:13: And what an introduction...I really hope i can live up to it..you've had some great guests on and i'm looking forward.

00:02:20: have a good chat with you today.

00:02:22: Wow thank you for the accolades Privilege getting you on the mic on such short notice too, and also while you guys at Green Tango without doubt busily preparing for the upcoming Intertabak show.

00:02:36: Thank you very much for finding the time.

00:02:38: I really appreciate it!

00:02:40: No thank you...I mean i can always make time for this.

00:02:43: intertabaks because everyone knows or anyone who's involved in the industry is a sort of pinnacle event And we like everybody else are busy preparing.

00:02:53: I think it's always a great test to be out amongst your peers, people you respect in the industry.

00:03:01: Whatever progress you've made.

00:03:03: and into tobacco there isn't many places to hide because there are lots of subject matter experts that come visit them so they have a chat with them.

00:03:11: It is the show for tobacco products reduced risk product.

00:03:17: So i figure this wasn't their first time right?

00:03:22: No, I don't know if i've got the gold card yet but there's probably been a frequent flyer over the last few years.

00:03:28: So you have number of years coming to into the back in other events both in my capacity at BAT as an independent and with Green Tank.

00:03:37: But it is real pleasure to be here with the green tank team this year.

00:03:41: Great!

00:03:42: I like Canadians.

00:03:43: Anyway todays reduced risk product industry is evolving rapidly maybe more rapidly than ever before.

00:03:51: There are constant advances in vaporization technology that continue to truly redefine product performance and consumer expectations over, and over again.

00:04:04: So I'd like to explore with you a bit more in-depth how innovations in heating technology engineering device design and transforming the market is happening.

00:04:17: We'll also discuss the broader trends shaping industry, growing demand for consistency and reliability.

00:04:25: And of course consumer safety which is a very important aspect to it all!

00:04:31: Last but not least we will look at how technologies like your company's quantum chip... Which apparently has nothing do with cereals by the way... Exempli the progress being made.

00:04:45: Let's start out easy peasy with a couple of quite broad questions.

00:04:48: Where has the industry been?

00:04:52: What has been done to get where this sector is standing today and what were the truly groundbreaking achievements in that regard?

00:05:00: well, thanks And you know if that's their easy-peasy question I'm not looking forward to the difficult one You know to do.

00:05:09: To sort of answer that, we really need to look back.

00:05:13: Vapour's been around for about twenty years and what I find interesting is the fundamentals or technology in the product hadn't changed which means a liquid meets some form of heating technology.

00:05:30: it produces of vapor Which in most cases carries nicotine and flavour for a consumer to inhale, and obviously the ultimate goal is people who can't or won't quit smoking.

00:05:44: To use this type of product to switch or reduce onto a reduced risk alternative?

00:05:49: So when I look at last twenty years what I find fascinating that's driven largest amounts.

00:05:59: change has actually been how consumers interact with products.

00:06:05: By that, I mean the core drivers of choice haven't necessarily changed.

00:06:10: Is the product available?

00:06:12: Is it at the right price?

00:06:13: is it satisfying?

00:06:15: Is It convenient for me to use?

00:06:19: but if we look over those last two decades what you'll see is a series of waves.

00:06:25: If We Go Right Back To The Twenty Years Ago The Sigalike was the product.

00:06:31: electronic cigarettes were shaped felt had the sort of red glowing ember at the end very much like a cigarette and that's what dominated the category.

00:06:42: And then when we get into the twenty tens, they open system.

00:06:45: so people were mixing bringing in their own type liquids.

00:06:49: flavors started to come in midway through the twenty ten pod mods or small rechargeable pen systems really very much defined by jewel which came out about half decade.

00:07:04: And then, in this decade it's really all about disposables that have driven the growth of a category.

00:07:13: So... The challenge is some these things, you know, the proliferation of formats players, flavors.

00:07:22: they've kind-of overshadowed What is really happening with this category, which is a really incredible transformation journey from combustible.

00:07:31: So vapor is the largest category by number of people who interact with it and consumers or those are people Who may have otherwise smoke?

00:07:40: And then underneath that what responsible companies had been doing to improve those products?

00:07:47: now we've got some of the safest most well-protected age controlled low-toxic products that the world has ever seen.

00:07:56: So it's very, very exciting to see that coming nowadays and It is one of the most well studied, scrutinized peer reviewed categories.

00:08:08: Now you've been talking about the era of Disposables.

00:08:13: That seems to come to an end.

00:08:15: I mean UK just banned Disposable.

00:08:18: so i think last year Malaysia has vape as band vaping completely just in March or something.

00:08:25: So evolution never stops, of course and we have to talk about what's up next?

00:08:32: Where is the industry headed beyond two thousand twenty six?

00:08:36: What's going to happen in the next twelve months for example?

00:08:41: I think your observation on this principles first is you know valid okay but It's regulatory driven, so yes we have seen the shift back in the UK.

00:08:53: Back to sort of rechargeable closed systems from disposable system and it is great because consumers are throwing away less batteries with less electronic waste.

00:09:04: but look at US market where two thirds of the markets are disposable illicit products.

00:09:11: I think its far from

00:09:14: resolved

00:09:15: this stage where things are headed, consumers have been interacting with many products from many places.

00:09:24: They're somewhat confused about what it is that they've being presented with whether its legal or whether it's illicit.

00:09:32: and the era of trust needs to be built on strong

00:09:36: fundamentals.".

00:09:37: So you were saying innovation isn't solely driven by regulatory changes And consumer expectations, needs and wants.

00:09:51: Correct?

00:09:51: Yeah I think the core drivers from consumers stand over time which is sort of this fashion convenience affordability that they're always going to be there... ...and then we see new trends coming in that read across other products that consumers are interacting with.

00:10:09: so one thing's more and more consumers wanting some control over their product.

00:10:15: They want to be able to tailor their products and then need emotions at any time.

00:10:19: so from my perspective, more importantly through a green tank perspective you've got sort of deliver those basics and fundamentals really well.

00:10:31: it's non-negotiable.

00:10:34: You have built in this sense consumer control ensuring that people feel empowered.

00:10:41: you know, from our perspective it's industry-leading harm reduction high fidelity flavor.

00:10:50: From first to last half a heating platform that gives incredible range and consistency.

00:10:57: so yeah with consumers its all of the above.

00:11:00: but in the end the regulatory bodies they have the last say don't they?

00:11:06: I mean consumers wanted and needed disposables.

00:11:10: And now look what happened in the UK.

00:11:12: The regulators just said No more disposables.

00:11:16: So in the end, it's all about what is being allowed and what is not being allowed regardless of what consumers want or need or expect?

00:11:26: But both those dimensions with many other dimensions needs to be taken into consideration.

00:11:34: but at your point in terms of regulation if doesn't happen in isolation that happens within

00:11:42: a

00:11:43: Particular context of regulation, education restrictions.

00:11:49: As you reflect on particular markets in India there's probably the best part quarter of a billion tobacco users who can't access illegal vapor products.

00:12:00: You know this is same country that are winning sort of audits from World Health Organization for this work.

00:12:07: so it really difficult when You understand the science behind these products to reconcile those positions with The sort of position or somebody like you know, the NHS and in the UK where I grew up.

00:12:23: So, you know regulation.

00:12:26: it has a huge impact on the industry.

00:12:29: We talked about two thirds of the US market being illicit.

00:12:34: It's not because Consumers want to buy illicit product.

00:12:39: I'm sure that in polls, it's been tested.

00:12:42: And the fact is that legal market is constrained to meet the demands they have which may well be a large format and gives them great price per person.

00:12:56: so we could probably spend day on this alone?

00:13:02: Let me give you opposite side as well.

00:13:05: I also acknowledge regulators are working very hard and they sort of didn't choose to be in this position.

00:13:14: We have had engagement with many regulators, particularly the SDA on quantum chip.

00:13:22: They were extremely interested to learn about some of the comparative studies that we've done With Quantum Chip versus products than they had previously approved And where we were showing on a like-for-like basis significant reductions in harmful and potentially harmful constituents, particularly things like metals and carbonyls.

00:13:43: So while... We can all sort of sit and chuck stones at what the regulators aren't doing.

00:13:50: I think it's really important to work collaboratively and help continue to support the regulator to understand move industry forward responsibly make their right decisions

00:14:03: All right, now we of course should peek at the technologies to engineering behind the ongoing evolution.

00:14:12: And you have already touched on that very briefly Chris.

00:14:16: I keep here at my humble abode Almost like a museum piece i would say in its original packaging one Of the very first e-cigarettes That came out of china around The turn of the millennium.

00:14:29: and from A modern viewpoint Its technology is, well...

00:14:35: primitive.

00:14:36: And it looks ridiculous with this ember at the end which lit up as soon you took a puff.

00:14:42: and yet despite this laughable design from our modern standpoint its primitive engineering At that time was sensation.

00:14:53: The world had never seen anything like it!

00:14:57: That simple gadget which is now collecting dust in one of my office drawers, it IS the ancestor of what kicked off this global revolution that gigantic industry we have today.

00:15:10: Well... fast-forward twenty five years a quarter for century.

00:15:15: where are WE TODAY?

00:15:17: That's my question to you!

00:15:19: What ARE THE HEATING AND Vaporization Technologies THAT CREATE THE BUS IN TWO THOUSAND TWENTY SIX.

00:15:26: What are the engineering challenges and approaches that developers are currently tackling?

00:15:33: You see, it's another easy-peasy question for you.

00:15:37: Yeah!

00:15:37: I love that sort of reflection on product in the drawer that twenty five years later seems a bit strange right And we have to think about was catalyst moves well over one hundred million people away from combustible cigarettes into a potentially reduced risk product.

00:15:58: And I think when we look at the first ice on today, what you see all this saying is everything moves on quite quickly.

00:16:06: over the years that has been progress within heating technologies.

00:16:14: It would be very rare that you find me talking negatively about any competitive products or technologies that have come along the way.

00:16:24: Because from wick and coil to mesh, to ceramics they all played a really important role in transition smokers away from cigarettes.

00:16:36: so I always defy and be first to acknowledge green tank is standing on the shoulders of giants.

00:16:45: But I think quantum chip without losing any humility, and quantum chip is probably the only technology that's really breaking the paradigm unless you go to heat-free technologies which as today cannot deliver in a same experience or satisfaction.

00:17:06: But quantum chip with its sort of precision engineering, every single one is absolutely identical.

00:17:13: Sully controllable.

00:17:14: we have exceptional performance time and again And there really isn't any other products like it in the market from a heating and atomization perspective.

00:17:25: Alright then I think that's the perfect cue now for me to elegantly transition into what the Canadians are contributing.

00:17:34: That means you green tank and in that regard, that means quantum chip.

00:17:40: What is quantum chip?

00:17:42: Actually what does it do?

00:17:44: how does it work?

00:17:45: why's its so groundbreaking?

00:17:47: How does it drive the evolution?

00:17:51: Well um you know.

00:17:53: first up I'm not sure that i can take all credit on behalf of Canadians around the world.

00:17:59: Um...I am Scottish but I do spend about half my time with the green tank team in Canada, which is wonderful.

00:18:06: Green Tank has a sort of global footprint over one hundred and twenty people based between Canada, Shenzhen and UK in a few other locations.

00:18:18: so we have skills around the world.

00:18:22: but let's say that the centre of gravity is Canada and Toronto.

00:18:28: So why is it different?

00:18:29: Why is it groundbreaking?

00:18:32: I don't want to sort of geek out too much here, but the quantum chip itself is using essentially microchip technology.

00:18:40: So nanofabrication technology and with that we're able to ensure each one is absolutely identical.

00:18:49: so really when you look at it under a microscope tiny engineering miracle.

00:18:57: This tiny little chip has over three thousand precision ports running through it that are less than a human hair in diameter.

00:19:07: and if you look at A lot of the existing technologies today, whether its ceramic mesh wick-and-coil The way they've been designed is that they sort of act like a sponge That holds liquid close to heating element And then the heating element goes hot and cold with every puff.

00:19:28: So, you know this liquid is going through these multiple heating cycles because you can't really drain a sponge.

00:19:35: show your obviously gonna be reheating liquids whichever time deteriorate toxicological perspective from any flavor perspectives whereas The three thousand plus ports in the quantum chip they essentially act like tiny pumps and feed the liquid that's required on to enter for the path.

00:19:57: Yeah, it is cool stuff.

00:19:59: so the liquid isn't held inside and spends a fraction of second within the chip.

00:20:05: because of that every part is consistent flavor performance from first-to last with an aerosol you can trust.

00:20:15: So yeah its really exciting stuff which love to let you come over, see it into tobacco and get your hands on it.

00:20:23: And what's always fun is looking at under the microscope because only then do you really get a sense of how refined this little piece of engineering

00:20:43: is here, it's real.

00:20:50: And as he said you're going to showcase at Intra Tobacco.

00:20:53: Is that like the first big show or have you launched it previously?

00:20:59: Yeah we've launched it Previously and last year really was the first time We'd commercialized one of our clients in fact a partner.

00:21:06: It is public knowledge.

00:21:07: I'm happy talk about it.

00:21:09: so Air Advanced Inhalation Rituals launch The Crown Switch with the quantum chip technology on it and that was just after into tobacco last year.

00:21:21: so is a really exciting time for us.

00:21:25: And will be back this year.

00:21:27: we love coming and of course we get chance to show everybody live from those who like today they can test it, and this year were coming with some exciting update.

00:21:41: so And Porsche can't give too many spoilers yet.

00:21:45: If there is someone who would like to learn more about quantum chip without actually having to travel all the way to Germany for it, GreenTank does provide that information on its website right?

00:21:58: It does.

00:21:59: yeah if you want to find out more about our products and technology then go to www.greentanktech.com And there you'll be able to find Tabretini.

00:22:14: And

00:22:14: just so make sure this doesn't go under, let me repeat that for you guys listening Let's green tank tech dot com look it up and with That we are quantum leaping out of here.

00:22:31: Thank You So much Chris For bearing With Me and I guess i'll see you at intertapak.

00:22:37: Please bring some moose head beer.

00:22:40: It's a must?

00:22:42: Or since you're Scottish, You can bring me A nice bottle of single malt.

00:22:46: Bye for now Chris!

00:22:48: Hi Thomas maybe one Of each but don't mix them.

00:22:51: Look forward to seeing you soon and thank you all

00:23:06: For listening you do.