TobaccoAsia/ InterTabac Podcast #58

00:00:04: This is Tobacco and Vape News & Views, brought to you by Tobacco Asia in partnership with Business Insights.

00:00:11: The new digital platform of inter-Tobacco and Inter Supply.

00:00:16: You host this TobaccoAsia's Thomas Schmidt.

00:00:18: Welcome to a new episode!

00:00:25: Hello everybody Here we are again.

00:00:28: I'm hosting on the mic today Shem Baldeo Singh, director for the Global Institute for Novel Nicotine or GIN And everybody who knows me is aware that I love a good chin from time to time.

00:00:44: Well, sorry for the pun I just couldn't help it!

00:00:47: Anywho... Back to topic….

00:00:50: Shem in his capacity as Chin's director Is drawing on its vast professional experience across commercial market expansion strategy and cross-sector engagement.

00:01:03: He also the driving force behind shaping chin The organization, not the liquor mind you.

00:01:11: A shaping gin into a collaborative forum for manufacturers and regulators... ...and public health stakeholders that are compelled to navigate an evolving nicotine landscape.

00:01:26: In that context Shem's work centers on promoting clearer standards encouraging regional dialogue and supporting broader access to lower-risk nicotine products.

00:01:38: And with that, let's finally get the man on the mic!

00:01:42: Good afternoon Shem, am I coming through?

00:01:45: Yes you are quite clearly.

00:01:47: Thank You Thomas and good day to your listeners.

00:01:50: On behalf of our leadership team at JIN and our membership we thank it for the opportunity

00:01:56: Lovely...and alrighty then great to have here.

00:01:59: and lets delve right in Jin, in which year was the institute founded?

00:02:05: It still seems to be quite new and of course I also would like know what is actually its purpose.

00:02:12: Its vision aims goals objectives whatever you want call it.

00:02:17: The Global Institute for Nobel Naked Team was founded in twenty-four as a conversation with Trill Hudson & John Dunn who invited me along to contribute my ideas And since then, it has evolved from what was a small startup initiative to membership-based global organization with formal governance.

00:02:42: Now we have regional focal points in places such as Spain and Saudi Arabia an instruction programme of work.

00:02:49: but our core focus is always been the harm reduction mission leading advocacy for safer nicotine products especially around modern oral formats.

00:03:00: So our vision was to build a credible organization that is sand-stripping and supports harm reduction by helping smokers move away from combustibles, even vaping into other standards within the modern oral format.

00:03:16: Alright!

00:03:17: You just mentioned two gentlemen... Jim Hudson?

00:03:22: What were their names again?

00:03:24: Phil Hudson And most of your listeners would also know John Dunn of the UK.

00:03:30: These two gentlemen, they recognized that there was a need for an association that treated with products such as oral nicotine pouches even heat not burn products and any other innovative oral product such as strips gums or lozenges around.

00:03:50: but except maybe one to two institutions in

00:03:53: U.K.,

00:03:54: There is no global organization that was advocating for non-vipping, noncombustible products.

00:04:02: So you were saying that Jim Dunn and Phil Hudson are actually co-founders of JIN?

00:04:08: Yes indeed the idea started with these gentlemen who then invited me to join them And uh...to take lead as it worked.

00:04:17: so really from that conversation From that initial concept I did have been leading in charge for the non-vaping, noncombustible nicotine categories so that responsible manufacturers have a voice.

00:04:33: So as an association we can align our standards and engage constructively with regulators And from start up to see the doom of an idea We now have forum where science and compliance and consumer protection are central rather than an afterthought as we develop safer nicotine products.

00:04:57: So basically you saw a gap there, and need for an organization like yours to bring stakeholders together in that kind of forum?

00:05:07: Yes indeed!

00:05:08: And if even look at the UK market We have seen phenomenal growth in uptake pouches already.

00:05:15: There was strong demand In United States.

00:05:19: Of course it has been established markets in Nordic countries, but looking at the UK and several European markets we are seeing phenomenal growth under awareness of these oral nicotine pouches.

00:05:32: Interesting!

00:05:33: And that leads me to the question what has actually changed most for JIN, your institute?

00:05:40: Between its founding... ...and end-of-the year, which is now.

00:05:45: Have goals change anyway like mission objectives or aims?

00:05:51: And if so, why did these changes become necessary?

00:05:55: From that early conversation in into twenty-twenty five Jin has grown from a startup advocacy.

00:06:01: Into our more structured business association where we now have formal working relationship with scientific partners or member companies and regulators.

00:06:12: but our core mission Has not changed.

00:06:15: what has evolved is the scope.

00:06:18: We Now Have A heavier emphasis on standards, code of practice and region-specific regulatory engagements.

00:06:26: We've made several the regulatory submissions in Europe, in UK and Spain.

00:06:32: And so all this is to say that the category itself as I mentioned before it's undergoing phenomenal growth.

00:06:40: So too have challenges which are also quickly scaled.

00:06:43: I see you mentioned Spain...and i would like take a quick look at Spain.

00:06:49: After all, within the European Union Spain has developed into an enormously vibrant pouch market.

00:06:58: Despite the highly diverse if not confusing and complicated regulations that ruled EU landscape... I mean we all know that the EU is a bumbling mess when it comes to novel nicotine products such as pouches.

00:07:13: So how's Jin engaging with the broader Spanish?

00:07:20: In Spain, GIN is represented by my colleague Monica who recently launched the Association Espanola de Bosas de Vicotina ABN.

00:07:33: And ABN and Monica participate in consultations public health, and legitimate businesses such as those that belong to June and now ABN.

00:07:55: So the focus is on arguing for category-specific rules which cover nicotine limits, flavors packaging, and of course new protection rather than blanket measures without effectively could push consumers back to smoking or even using innocent products.

00:08:18: Association Española de Bolsas del Nicotina, if I understood it correctly.

00:08:23: Is that a standalone organization or is an offshoot of JIN?

00:08:29: It's the offshoot for JIN.

00:08:31: ABN has been founded by Monica and a couple other colleagues so that a dedicated focus can be given to Spanish markets.

00:08:44: Why do you think is Spain such an important test case for nicotine pouches?

00:08:51: Well, Spain.

00:08:52: it's important because it combines not only a high smoking prevalence but also one of the faster developing pouch markets.

00:09:01: And so there is a policy debate that has been closely watched in Ukraine and Spain across the EU Because at this same time what we see is happening in parallel is the TPD and TPE debate which was also gearing up across Europe.

00:09:18: So, The decision that Spain takes on classification and nicotine strengths and marketing restrictions are likely to involve or at least influence how other European regulators treat nicotine pouches over the next few years.

00:09:34: I understand but let's do a little journey towards the East.

00:09:39: Let's go over Asia to the Middle East, to be more exact.

00:09:43: Saudi Arabia as I see it is another testing ground for pouches and in many aspects actually Saudi Arabia's quite similar to Spain.

00:09:56: very often what happens in Saudi Arabia rather sooner than later filters down to neighboring countries in the region.

00:10:04: so whats going on with pouches in Saudi Arabia?

00:10:07: And the wider middle east?

00:10:11: In Saudi Arabia and parts of the Middle East such as in UAE, very soon in Bahrain, nicotine pouches have moved or will soon move from a niche category to a recognized category status that is supported by clearer imports retail.

00:10:30: And protocols that we see in many European markets.

00:10:34: so these Gulf market are actively refining the frameworks that emphasize adult-only sales, product quality and distribution.

00:10:44: That creates a predictable environment for the category of our JIN members.

00:10:49: And I should say also much more work in JIN within the Gulf region is led by my colleague Joe Saca an experienced Chief Commercial Officer.

00:11:02: Soon we will reveal some very exciting initiatives that Joe is shepherding in Riyadh.

00:11:08: So we look forward to some successes very soon coming out of Saudi Arabia.

00:11:13: Right here, please keep us posted!

00:11:16: And how does Jin exactly fit into this?

00:11:19: Let's call it the regional dynamics... That transition and evolution

00:11:25: You know.

00:11:25: as we look at this regionals shift like We see Jin's role As being there To help shake those frameworks so they remain risk-proportionate, enforceable and importantly aligned with international best practice.

00:11:41: Now this also includes advising on standards in supporting local partners but making sure that regulators see pouches or other oral products as tools for harm reduction rather than unregulated novelty products.

00:11:59: All right Much more to Asia, of course than only the Middle East.

00:12:04: So how pronounced are opportunities for oral nicotine elsewhere in Asia?

00:12:10: Let's leave out the middle east for now.

00:12:12: let's go to East Asia South-East Asia even south asia and central Asia.

00:12:19: The opportunity is received for oral Nicotine across Asia.

00:12:22: specifically Central, Southeast and East Asia are substantial.

00:12:28: What we can observe is that there exists a high smoking prevalence in many countries.

00:12:33: In the region, There's also rapid urbanization and there's a strong demand for discreting and smoke-free products.

00:12:42: So some of the forecasts that we've seen from the Asia Pacific college market point to robust growth being relatively low base And so this suggests significant room For irresponsibly regulated expansion of the nicotine pulp products across the region.

00:13:02: But, of course there are more or less pronounced barriers in these markets.

00:13:07: Let's look at Southeast Asia.

00:13:09: I think regulations concerning pouches still quite obscure and unclear to many players.

00:13:17: You're right The main variants are really fragmented or unclear regulation And it is a great deal political sensitivity around nicotine, and so the tendency is to treat all non-combustible products as if they go at same risk.

00:13:32: So in many Asian markets what we have it's limited category specific standards.

00:13:39: We see there are weak enforcements against illicit products And for now There a very low public understanding of harm reduction.

00:13:49: It also makes it harder For responsible companies To invest on scale At the moment.

00:13:55: Then of course we have to big elephant in the room, China.

00:14:00: I'm not sure whether my information is correct at this point but i've heard that china basically Is going try and monopolize nicotine pouches And weed out all these you know small name brands That are being manufactured Out Of Hong Kong and elsewhere and basically taking over that segment.

00:14:24: Have you heard anything about that?

00:14:26: As your point out, China is the behemoth.

00:14:29: I do believe.

00:14:29: at Intertabakh in Dortmund In September, China National Tobacco They give a glimpse of a pouch That they might be releasing.

00:14:37: i think in two provinces.

00:14:39: There was perhaps either limited release or some sort of conversations or discussions around pouches.

00:14:45: But what we have seen very clearly are things to come is a formal standard at this state level.

00:14:52: Rules have been introduced to curb the illicit production of oral nicotine pouches in China, so that says for me that government now focusing on the illicit market.

00:15:05: if they are introducing health products themselves either within china or export predominantly That remains to be seen.

00:15:13: but I think what many legitimate manufacturers welcome is that the Chinese authorities are cracking down on these illicit culture manufacturers within China.

00:15:23: Right, and it will be very interesting to see you.

00:15:26: but beyond pouches what other oral formats is Chin watching currently?

00:15:32: And why are these product segments relevant at all?

00:15:37: Well we're concerned with products not figs or certainly not combustible cigarettes so that leaves us with heated tobacco in a number of others delivery technologies that can offer control dosing and the low toxicant exposure.

00:15:52: These formats can be framed very nicely within what we often refer to as a risk continuum approach, which we could use certainly for pouches or products such as Hitchit tobacco.

00:16:04: Well then again nicotine gums are even nicotine patches.

00:16:09: they're not anything in novel.

00:16:11: there have been around for decades after nut.

00:16:15: Yes, they have.

00:16:16: But what we are seeing even within Gums is that there's still some innovation that is occurring in this space be it flavors for instance or the dosage of nicotine but certainly for batches.

00:16:27: you're quite right.

00:16:28: That has been available as an energy product at most places and As we look at for instance patches It really comes down to consumer acceptance.

00:16:41: As we look at the harm reduction equation, a large part of that has to do with adduction by the wider population.

00:16:50: So while you might have very good products if no one is using it then its contribution is nil-to-very little.

00:16:57: and invite your investors to look at GIN.global where they will find out more information about risk continuum or the continuum of risks.

00:17:05: It's often forgotten.

00:17:06: there are massive dropouts in the harm Once you move away from cigarettes and cigars as you move to vaguing, and heated tobacco.

00:17:16: And oral nicotine pouches.

00:17:18: we have gin sednivue.

00:17:19: positively.

00:17:20: that oral nicotin pouch is an NRT adjacent product.

00:17:25: Right!

00:17:26: There even are now nicotine inhalers which are incomparable to an asthma inhaler

00:17:33: Nicotine inhaler themselves another form of oral delivery mechanism.

00:17:39: The key as I mentioned before is whether or not this product is acceptable to smokers, ultimately getting us wide an adoption by smokers for these products.

00:17:53: Exactly that's the entire point and we are approaching the end already Shim but perhaps you'd like to send out a final message from Jin two policy makers on one hand and industry leaders on other and wherever in the world they may

00:18:21: be.

00:18:36: and consumer protections, which include robust new access controls on its marketing and cooperation with enforcement.

00:18:49: The argument is that we need not only a visibly responsible industry but we need to secure regulatory and public trust so the oral nicotine sector can be seen as legitimate alternative for smoking.

00:19:08: Thank you very much for this casual talk.

00:19:12: Time's up, I'm afraid!

00:19:14: And of course also thankyoufor the insights you have shared.

00:19:18: in that sense Cheers Prost Salute Nastrovje

00:19:26: and Chinchin.

00:19:27: Bye for now Shem!

00:19:29: Thankyou Thomas and thankyou again to your audience too.

00:19:32: Have a good day.

00:19:39: This was Tobacco and Vape News & Views A podcast produced by Tobacco Asia for Business Insights.

00:19:46: Thank you, for listening in!

00:19:48: Please tune-in again next time... Your host was Thomas Schmidt.

00:19:52: If You Didn't Know Now YOU

00:19:55: Do.