TobaccoAsia/ InterTabac Podcast #59

00:00:04: This is Tobacco and Vape News & Views, brought to you by Tobacco Asia in partnership with Business Insights.

00:00:11: The new digital platform of inter-Tobacco and intersupply.

00:00:16: You host this TobaccoAsia's Thomas Schmidt.

00:00:18: Welcome to a new episode.

00:00:24: Hello everybody!

00:00:25: Today it' s very special episode because we are recording on site at InterTobacqe in Dortmund

00:00:33: Germany

00:00:34: And I have waiting on the mic.

00:00:36: Michelle Merkerson, an international cigar education specialist.

00:00:42: International certified cigars sommelier and founder of Zegars with Emma Cigar Education Company creating immersive experiences for private corporate wedding and hospitality groups active in this cigar industry since two thousand eighteen Michelle launched Cigars with M in two thousand twenty-two and has since produced more than two hundred nineteen educational episodes exploring cigar craftmanship, history flavor and appreciation.

00:01:18: In two thousand Twenty five Michelle hosted VIP cigar education classes featuring twenty five different manufacturers from across the industry.

00:01:28: Chew in twenty-six Michelle became the first black woman to complete a cigar education residency in industry.

00:01:37: Further establishing her as trailblazer in Cigar Education and experiential programming.

00:01:44: Her work has been recognized by WTOP News, huge American media network which featured cigars with them and highlighted their approach on cigar education.

00:01:59: Through education, storytelling and curated experiences Michelle continues to create meaningful connections between people, cigars... ...and the culture surrounding them.

00:02:13: Our today's topic is of course what defines The Modern Cigar Consumer?

00:02:19: And how has industry evolving in response?

00:02:21: Cigars are already usually popular in the United States In the Middle East Europe And the Industry Is Evolving.

00:02:30: It's never stagnant, it is very dynamic.

00:02:33: And I'm turning over the mic now to Michelle and pick her brains a bit.

00:02:39: Michelle!

00:02:40: Thank you for finding that time being here... ...I know was on short notice.. ..and this show is very busy.

00:02:47: into-the-back always is little bit of chaos right?

00:02:51: You've been holding classes or in past two days so thank you for findin' the time bein' hear.

00:02:59: Let me ask you, how did you get into cigars?

00:03:02: You were not waking up one morning.

00:03:05: I am going to be a cigar sommelier now and especially for female...I mean it is still pretty much male dominated pastime isn't that true?

00:03:16: Very sure.

00:03:17: the very interesting piece too what i do in How I got Into It Is That My Dad Actually introduced me to cigars.

00:03:26: Him and my uncle, I've been smoking cigars pretty much all my

00:03:29: life.".

00:03:30: And then from there... ...I realized on my twenty-third birthday that I wanted my dad to teach me how to enjoy cigars—and he did!

00:03:39: He was very slow about it because he didn't really want his baby girl be learning about cigars but he gave in —and i'm glad that he did.

00:03:49: So from there….

00:03:50: …I expanded my knowledge into a cigar culture and in the industry as a whole.

00:03:57: And then I realized that there was A lack of education, i got to a point where I started seeing some Of the very same things That I had already learned.

00:04:07: it Was looking for more ways To engage In this cigar industry and immerse myself.

00:04:13: So I then took It upon myself to be The change that I wanted to see and Started cigars with him the show?

00:04:21: and in that I have managed connect with so many different manufacturers, study in three different countries.

00:04:29: As well as being in a position to be the industry's educator.

00:04:33: I gladly and very gratefully accept the challenge and title as such.

00:04:40: Michel you're still pretty young would say that what do know about cigars today is pretty much self-tutored?

00:04:54: self-applied.

00:04:56: I have had an incredible journey with many different mentors and teachers, one of my first teachers of course being my dad was showing me how to smoke a cigar um...and how to enjoy it!

00:05:09: And then along in my journey i met Sterling who is a amazing incredible tobacconist in Mobile Alabama at Havana Rays.

00:05:21: He was one of my first real teachers in the industry.

00:05:27: We used to go into The Humidor every week, couple times a week and he would talk me about each family's of these cigars that were at The Humor.

00:05:37: And over time I got really knowledgeable.

00:05:42: it actually retained information by the time.

00:05:44: then It is time for me move to Virginia from Alabama.

00:05:48: I was prepared to kind of figure out where i wanted to be in the industry.

00:05:54: So then from there, I had various retailers that invested time into me being able to understand The retail aspect Of this cigar industry and Then I have friends who've been smoking much longer than I have And then elders in the cigar industry.

00:06:13: And now we have a huge family of people, manufacturers, distribution companies retailers.

00:06:20: The money is everything you need.

00:06:22: I had them as teachers so many different topics and roles within the industry which helps keep me sharp.

00:06:31: Now it's made to jump across an Atlantic right?

00:06:35: You are here in Dortmund in Germany at Interteback towards largest exhibition for tobacco products including babes, nicotine pouches, cigars.

00:06:48: How did that happen?

00:06:49: Did they get in touch with you or did you hook up with

00:06:51: them?".

00:06:53: That is a wonderful story and I will keep short because i know we don't have much time but... ...I got an opportunity to meet Katrin And We connected couple years ago.. ..and I am very grateful.

00:07:07: this year she invited me come to change remaster classes at entry to back.

00:07:13: And I'm just so grateful, pinched myself trying and figure out...I'm actually here in Germany!

00:07:21: ...and have the ability share knowledge that i've gained over the last four years.

00:07:26: it is probably the highlight of my year.

00:07:34: What did you bring into people?

00:07:37: My masterclasses were first cultivated understanding the consumer, something that I think us as an industry we are trying to navigate.

00:07:49: We've always produced cigars for consumers right?

00:07:52: We have always had retail shops for consumers.

00:07:55: but this idea of actually educating our consumers is new and in defining what the modern cigar consumer something that I realize even from my classes when I interact with my students.

00:08:13: They are adult students, but they're still my babies and knowing the current and modern cigar consumer is more focused on being educated.

00:08:26: They actually want to know the process, but good.

00:08:28: The bad.

00:08:29: The ugly.

00:08:30: they want.

00:08:30: you share with them all of the pieces at the puzzle.

00:08:33: if your story and hadn't got there also wanna know what is it that then as a consumer can do to help the manufacturer other than just buying this car?

00:08:46: And so my first class was about being able to integrate The Digital Humidor, which essentially is your footprint on the web and in social media attracting consumers to your particular brand.

00:09:04: Your lounge or other products that you offer.

00:09:07: The class that was today called She Is the Consumer, being able to speak about how there is a way to integrate women into this cigar space in so many different levels including the lounge as well and other roles.

00:09:25: And then tomorrow's class is about brand.

00:09:27: storytelling probably should be communicated to the consumer in order for them to become raving fans, but also create this level of loyalty that you have as we move forward and your brand.

00:09:51: Now the attendees of Intertebeck are off course primarily B-to-B people.

00:09:58: they're not end consumers.

00:10:01: And still what do you hope with your masterclass?

00:10:03: That it has a kind of no-balling effect on what they learned in your Masterclass And so they can bring it to their customers.

00:10:10: Oh, what's the objective here?

00:10:12: I've had students in my classes here.

00:10:15: They have been a mix of distributors and suppliers and several manufacturers.

00:10:22: i've been able To connect the dots for them.

00:10:24: So The same way that you want to attract a consumer is the Same way You're going to try to attract A cigar company to Have you as a distribution company Somebody who is on the manufacturing side still needs to know about what you do.

00:10:42: They need to see your footprint on social media, they needed to see a website and you didn't know your process.

00:10:48: And all of those things are helpful.

00:10:49: when you add that aspects of Social Media where?

00:10:52: You can see visuals and you could see videos Maybe our podcast near talking because those are reputable pieces of information That give people more understanding of who you are.

00:11:04: And then when it comes to you doing business with different people, You have the opportunity and responsibility as a business owner.

00:11:12: To look at it from as many sides as possible.

00:11:16: so The key piece of information that your learning in terms of today's topic about women integrating into this space?

00:11:23: You making safe spaces for women to be included not necessarily you saying, oh we're going to have the women over here on one side.

00:11:32: You are actually creating spaces like maybe your creating jobs where you are hiring women specifically for this role because it makes sense.

00:11:39: um One very important piece of that is Women being in a cigar industry.

00:11:46: from a manufacturer

00:11:47: perspective.

00:11:48: there's a role in the cigar industries process when it comes to the manufacturing of cigars and which tend to be the one for that role, and it's color sorting.

00:12:00: So specific to the point that the delicacy of a woman's hand when handling these cigars in the robbers... These cigars have been rolled And now they are being sorted based on color.

00:12:15: The attention-to detail That A Woman Naturally Has Allows Her To Be In This Role have had the opportunity to see this dozens of times in different factories, and it has been the same.

00:12:27: There's been a woman in that role talking to different manufacturers.

00:12:30: they've been very clear about why there is a women in that roll um... And their other companies like Tuscan was a perfect example.

00:12:39: They have made it a point that all of their rollers who roll every single one on their cigars are women!

00:12:49: and they want the delicacy of a woman to be able provide their premier cigar that they have.

00:12:56: That was great explanation, I never really thought about it but you're right when we look at rolling floors in the Caribbean its always women understand.

00:13:06: now why?

00:13:08: You just explained this to me Now when talking about United States without any doubt my far largest market for premium cigars Perhaps followed by Europe and perhaps the Middle East, right?

00:13:23: Now... The cigar culture in United States is very much dominated still by Dominican and Cuban cigars.

00:13:33: Do you see any changes going on there.

00:13:37: maybe not now but any trends for the future Maybe some lighter cigars that are appealing more to a younger type of consumer.

00:13:50: Unfortunately, we don't have the opportunity to have Cuban cigars in the US since our embargo but we do have the opportunities.

00:13:58: enjoy new world cigars.

00:14:01: and two manufacturers that are near here into my heart Lidl Gomez and Cornelito Fuente mentioned that we're in the boom making some of the best cigars this generation my generation specifically, not saying it wasn't great quality before.

00:14:18: but the technology and the understanding that we have now is different.

00:14:24: There are a lot of tools there are a lots of ways.

00:14:28: you can do some of those same things But maybe more innovative And the consumer enjoying cigars whether it's Menekin or Nicaraguan or Costa Rican Or even cigars from Ecuador.

00:14:44: Those are some of the things that we're looking as being trends.

00:14:48: Me personally, I've always encountered cigars.

00:14:51: so i would say the trend is that our consumers enjoy and look for great quality right?

00:14:59: And then other part it's were enjoying cigars from different countries.

00:15:02: maybe weren't available before.

00:15:05: The other trend was women infiltrating into the cigar industry adding to space.

00:15:14: believe that before the next ten years, we will see a fifty percent increase in cigar activity from women.

00:15:26: Are we talking to you?

00:15:27: The US here?

00:15:28: In the

00:15:30: U.S.,

00:15:30: now when I was in Europe and January teaching on class...I realized there are a lot of women who enjoy cigars which i absolutely love but think it's great.

00:15:42: I noticed that it is kind of more in a cigar group versus any

00:15:49: U.S.,

00:15:49: you walk into a lounge and there's already a bunch women in there, yes they have their own groups but usually walking to the lounging there would be two men and twenty woman just any given day.

00:16:00: so theres little bit difference here but i would definitely say its going to be trend for an increase.

00:16:07: I think it will happen in Europe.

00:16:13: It'll just be a little bit slower, not as abrupt with the European market but my hope is that everybody would be integrated as much as possible.

00:16:26: Now Michelle when i imagine this stereotypical cigar smoker and please forgive me for saying so... I see middle-aged white man in business suit perhaps sitting at lounge chair enjoying his cigar.

00:16:41: Is my teacher wrong?

00:16:44: I would say your picture is a bit dated, but it doesn't mean that the middle-aged white man.

00:16:51: It's not enjoying his cigar.

00:16:52: just means that now The market is open to women and so bring two African Americans has opened to people from other countries.

00:17:02: He's open to be willing India people in China You name it.

00:17:05: he's out open to everybody which i think is much better than way.

00:17:09: we all can learn from each other Even though we have the differences of skin color or age, or height.

00:17:16: We can learn from each other which makes our industry.

00:17:20: The cigar industry and one of the greatest industries that we have in world.

00:17:24: And we make each other so much better because we kept the ability to work together and now a common denominator Which is?

00:17:31: We love tobacco.

00:17:34: Oh my god I'm such a dinosaur.

00:17:36: at least forgive me for that.

00:17:39: Now There's a purpose to my question, of course.

00:17:43: Because if I ask you what defines the modern cigar consumer?

00:17:49: Obviously we are no longer talking about middle-aged white men in business suit.

00:17:54: right We also include women here now which have come into the fold.

00:18:00: who else our younger people actually taking two cigars?

00:18:05: I do think that younger people are, but it depends on how young you're referred to.

00:18:10: So i would say definitely twenty one and up when it comes in the

00:18:14: U.S.,

00:18:15: And I believe in Europe at the age of eighteen or enjoying cigars...I have noticed some my students are twenty two-twenty three years old so that is younger than me.

00:18:28: But then cigar lounges talk to retailers who've mentioned they met some twenty-one year olds who on their twenty first birthday want to try cigar.

00:18:39: So I do think the younger generation is indulging in cigars, however i think that they are trying understand The choices at the hat.

00:18:50: now we have way more choices than what had thirty years ago.

00:18:54: so understanding cigars is something that's communal and It gives you a level of access to introduce you two different types of people.

00:19:05: And, You are putting yourself in the position To be somewhere else that she might not absolutely before unless She were smoking a cigar.

00:19:17: Our cigars still like A status symbol.

00:19:21: If u can afford a cigar U have made it?

00:19:26: I would say it depends on The market.

00:19:27: when i was In the UK I went to our lounges.

00:19:33: Um, i noticed that things were a little bit more pretentious than things are in the U S now.

00:19:43: does it mean everybody is pretentiously?

00:19:47: absolutely not?

00:19:48: I enjoyed myself while was there and keep their lounge versus the bar lounges in U.S.. So

00:20:02: is that once again a case of Europe lacking behind United States, being a little slower?

00:20:10: I don't know if i would say it's slower...I just think its different culture Just because this in the US doesn't necessarily make it right and just Because in the UK Doesn't Make It Right either!

00:20:21: I Think That Two Games Can Be True At The Same Time.

00:20:24: In the UK They are very well-dressed when they go to the cigar lounge and it is how can I serve you, right?

00:20:34: Which i super enjoy Because i come from a hospitality background as well.

00:20:38: So The aspect of service Is super important.

00:20:42: in the u.s It is more along the lines Of you know You were my family we our community.

00:20:48: We break right together go on the boat together.

00:20:52: We're doing business deals together, but maybe the dress is not very well-dressed?

00:21:00: Maybe we are coming from work or...maybe we ARE well dressed!

00:21:04: But we have no blazer with a tie Or just some flip flops of that sort.

00:21:12: I'm NOT generalizing the entire market Just simply giving an example.

00:21:16: In the

00:21:16: U.S.,

00:21:17: it feels more communal and more, hey we'd love to get to know you.

00:21:21: And in Europe It seems a little bit more

00:21:25: of... Exclusive?

00:21:26: Exclusive yes!

00:21:28: Also We To my knowledge in the US don't have as many gentlemen's clubs.

00:21:34: Versus in Europe, gentleman's club is very common thing Which I also understand.

00:21:40: that Women are allowed be in this space which is great Um..and then in the u.s prying cigar loungers, but it is men and women.

00:21:49: So there's lots of differences there, But I do believe that todays can be true.

00:21:53: at the same time

00:21:54: now The consumer in the end dictates what a manufacturer will have to deliver right?

00:22:01: What Do you see they want with the dynamics being their in response to consumer demand?

00:22:07: I

00:22:07: would say the response would Be again based on market European markets most completely different cigars than the US market.

00:22:17: And I think what is really beautiful about that, Is it a manufacturer has to kind of expand their brains on The blending?

00:22:28: It's we have these cigars for the European Market and we had these cigares For the us market.

00:22:34: in one market might be A little bit more freedom then the other.

00:22:38: but Having a conversation with different manufacturers it is knowing that they like the challenge, because they understand my blend.

00:22:51: Is a reflection of me and my company.

00:22:54: but also my blend is crossing multiple markets in getting to the end consumer.

00:23:01: so The consumer in the U.S might want one thing and I'm able to please them over here, And then the consumer in Europe i might be able To please them as well because i can blend something to the talent of the European market

00:23:14: Or the Middle East for that?

00:23:15: or

00:23:15: the middle east market?

00:23:16: Or the Asian Market?

00:23:17: right where the african market.

00:23:19: it is a beautiful thing Because the more i have conversations with manufacturers i recognize How truly talented they are not just For what they've been produced but their knowledge and the amount of work that they put into examining all markets across the board, not just limiting to... I only make cigars for this one market.

00:23:45: Right!

00:23:45: Let's talk about a future.

00:23:47: what trends Michelle do you think are coming up in the future?

00:23:54: We're not talking two hundred years from now we are talking immediate future.

00:23:58: next couple of years or so

00:24:01: I would say.

00:24:02: the trends will definitely be more integration of women.

00:24:06: But, and also think we'll have... ...more many doctors experiment with different types of tobaccos as well countries that are offering tobacco across-the globe.

00:24:22: i think we get an opportunity to see some more experiential creations which will be nice because Again, it expands the manufacturer's knowledge and their ability to analyze different markets.

00:24:37: So I'm looking forward to trying some exceptional cigars from so many different countries.

00:24:43: It would be nice if i had one humidor that had cigars From multiple countries in there And not just The big four as we like To call it.

00:24:53: um although i love cigars when the Big Four.

00:24:55: i think That these other countries are popping up have good things to offer as well, and help the industry just expand even more.

00:25:05: Would you say that it will be especially boutique brands that are going to drive that evolution rather than big established brands?

00:25:14: I believe that the legacy brands are testing currently.

00:25:20: in February took some of my students to Procedure and we were able legacy brands that are experimenting with different tobaccos.

00:25:33: So I think on both sides, legacy and boutique there are companies that are focused on being able to explore more into other tobacgos.

00:25:44: now in terms of one taking more risks than the other i think it may be that the boutique cigar companies who were specifically Located in those particular countries may be taking the risk and saying, hey we're going to make a cigar from this country.

00:26:04: But in terms of tobacco it actually blending the cigar versus the origin of the company and said place.

00:26:11: I think that there are already cigar manufacturers on the legacy side That are exploring different tobaccos And It'll Be Very Interesting To See How Tobacco is used in letting sea brain cigars and also use in boutique.

00:26:29: Those are the benefits of globalization, basically right?

00:26:32: Have you heard of Cameroon Rapper, almost mystical Cameroons Rapper?

00:26:38: have they ever had a cigar with a Camerooni Rapper?

00:26:40: Absolutely!

00:26:42: And one my favorite tobaccos actually is Cameroom Tobacco.

00:26:48: so I'm still glad that you mentioned it.

00:26:50: uh, Honda and Cameroon Tobacco as well as the luxury very luxury Merrillville Cameroons tobacco.

00:27:00: And being able to experience The Chew of those is quite incredible.

00:27:05: um-the Aladino family which Is Very very near and dear for my heart um-The JRE Tobacco Company.

00:27:12: They have Honda & Cameroun Tobacco.

00:27:16: It is exceptional.

00:27:18: They have a Lancero and it's a Cameroon Lanceros, by far one of my favorite cigars.

00:27:25: And then on the Merrifield side you had The Cigar that Is made with the Merifold Cameroons... ...it is quite interesting to see how more Brands will use Cameroon in different ways and the blending process.

00:27:41: maybe somebody might come up with a cigar that has camera wrapper, but it may have Brazilian filler minder.

00:27:48: Now That's very interesting combination But It can't be done if actually tastes good.

00:27:55: I Can see how passionate you are about all of this now.

00:27:59: of course there also would be an evolution for Michelle Merkerson.

00:28:04: What's in store for you?

00:28:05: what are your plans for the foreseeable future?

00:28:09: I honestly will say For me, i would love to continue The expansion of doing cigar education experience classes In other markets which is something i'm currently working on as well.

00:28:22: And then i would Love To Continue Of course supporting consumers and their Education.

00:28:29: From my show Cigars with M You know, if a center company says hey we want to do a partnership with you would love to do that as well.

00:28:39: And I'm just happy to be here where i have uh prominent space not just in this particular arena but having say things that are done at the table.

00:28:51: it is truly an honor to have a seat of the table and to be respected across the globe and to have the responsibility from the consumer As well as the manufacturers and distribution companies, and retailers to truly push our industry into next phase.

00:29:10: To make this cigar industry even more visible to everybody And create an even safer space for everyone.

00:29:19: Have people ever described you as a cigar guru or something?

00:29:23: Until do you dislike it or like it?

00:29:28: I don't know that i would say im a guru, not because I uh dont appreciate the recognition.

00:29:35: I would say for me Im always learning.

00:29:37: something thats very near and dear to my heart is that I continue to focus on what we're doing how were moving forward and not just look at me in what ive been doing.

00:29:51: I am grateful to be in this space where people do value my expertise but I prefer to be called an international cigar educator or International Cigar Education Specialist because it leaves room for growth.

00:30:08: When i think of the word guru, It almost puts you at a position where You could potentially Be someone who gets into this holier than thou space and I don't really want To be in that space?

00:30:24: really value my information and the things that I offer to the table.

00:30:29: And there is room for things to grow in the future, and learn more.

00:30:33: Very well said Michelle!

00:30:35: And...I think that brings us to an end of this episode.

00:30:39: I'm signing off.

00:30:41: This was our first episode right from Intertabak, two thousand twenty-six.

00:30:47: Bye for now.

00:30:56: A podcast produced by Tobacco Asia for Business Insights.

00:31:03: Thank you for listening in!

00:31:05: Please tune-in again next time, your host was Thomas Schmidt.

00:31:09: if he didn't know now you do.